Coming out of the Orange Fog

OK, PC & Lady Suisse, here is your freak'in post........it's not much.  This is an email that I sent to a lady named Jessica who was in my upline.  Jessica was the first Arbot to call me when I started asking questions and expressed my concerns about the information I had been provided.  I told her that based on the information that I had found it sounded like Arbonne was running a scam and at this point I want proof that they were going to live up to the promises they made me when I signed up or else I would be inclined to believe what I had found.   Well, you can imagine the BS I was fed then.  OK, so here is the email I sent her when she asked where I received my info from.....

http://arbonneanonymous.typepad.com/Jessica.doc

Comments

[Lady Swisse, Viscountess DeePore]

Wow, a whole clean slate for comments! Awesome. Great email, Cat. It's like hittin play on the ol' tape recorder. It's so funny that I once sounded like that, verbatum. You could really tell her lack of product knowledge.

Some consultants out there really take ownership of the fact that they are in business to sell skincare and other products. Those people study ingredients. When you ask them a question, they respond with the information, not "go look it up yourself." People who tell you to go find your own answers don't really have any of their own. I believed my sponsor when she first told me she makes me do things on my own so I get used to finding my own information and of course that I'm in business for myself so I have to take responsibility, but then I realized that she really just didn't have the info and was too busy prospecting at the Dress Barn to spend time helping me.

[ripped off reis]

Cat

Very interesting information salley gave you. Did you let her know that Harvest and Partners DOES NOT own a portion of Whole foods. CuzIcan confirmed this in phone conversation she had with the top executives last month. Also the bbb is not a reliable source. business pay to be a part of them. Also, they change their rating daily and also allowed Stian Morck to respond to complaints after he ignored them and they were already closed. The DSA as well works together with MLMs. Stian sits on the board of them and they have done anything but back him up. AIRD does not exist nor is the reorder rate correct. So let Ms. Salley know it doesn't matter what they put in their "products knowledge" it is not a credibly company. Good luck....

[pinkcadillac]

The BBB is obviously not a good source of info any more, since at one point there were tons of complaints listed against Arbonnea and now they suddenly have a clean slate??
Plus, I love how she references the DSA website as a place to learn about fraud and pyramid schemes!!! How silly. That's like the cigarette companies posting warnings on their products about health effects: hello??

[Cat]

That was exactly what I was hoping you guys would get out of that email! That was back in Oct and I took the whole email from Sally as an insult to my intelligence. The DSA.....that was the part that really got my blood boiling. I went to the product knowledge area of the Arbonne website and became even more pissed when I discovered that you most certainly can not get accurate info there either.

[Cat]

ROR, no I didn't know that Harvest didn't own a portion of Whole Foods, but honestly at the time and also now, I knew she was feeding me a bunch of malarky anyway so I didn't take much of what she said as credible information. I'm glad you brought it up though because I'm sure others might also have been told the same thing.

Your upline shared with what she knew to the best of her ability. She sounds fairly sincere to me. And as for not knowing informaiton and offering to get it, as a teacher, that's the best way to hnadle not knowing. Better to admit to not kowing than to pretend and be dead wrong. Her response seemd pretty even-handed to me. She's right it won't work out for you if you have little or no confidence in what you're doing and she was clear about that. She didn't tell you not to ask questions, she didn't speak of any punishment if you continue to bring negative press to her attention and she didn't try to talk you out of how you feel or what you found. What she did do was choose not to engage you on every point.

[Lady Swisse, Viscountess DeePore]

No-name, the tone of the email is the clear psychological bullying that MLMers are trained to use, often without their own knowledge. Those making money are experts on it...coincidence? I think not. Everything about that email is a placement of blame upon the complaintant. This is the natural progression when a person wakes up from the "dream" of MLM.

At the beginning, the courting period, it is so much "we," "Anyone can do this," "You will NEVER be alone," "I will help YOU" and "teamwork." Once you are in, it becomes "you need to do this," "I need YOUR help," "This is your business." When you begin to come out of the fog and ask questions or decide to stop doing the business, it is all "YOU FAILED," "YOU did not work," "I guess YOU just weren't cut out for this." Support only exists in success in this business for the vast majority of the participants.

[Cat]

Hmmmmm, well, when you are asking someone to fork over $2K you might want to get your facts straight. It wasn't that I didn't think she wasn't being sincere; I wasn't looking for sincerity. I was looking for honesty and I know this woman well enough to know that she's not stupid. She fed me the BS that her upline told her to feed me. She was placating me! And just an FYI, I've know this woman since we were 14. We went to middle school, high school and college (we lived together in college) together....does that email sound like she is talking to an old and dear friend? No, she sounds like she is talking to an acquaintance!

[pinkcadillac]

wow - you and this woman go back that far? that puts a whole new spin on it. It definitely sounds like she's talking to someone she barely knows. good grief.

[Cat]

At the time of this email, Carol and Sally (my recruiters) had told me that they were going to stop using the pup approach because they had concerns as well. Turns out, they were just humoring me and had no intention of changing their marketing plan. I haven't heard from Sally at all since I completely walked away from Arbonne. She has not tried to contact me at all. Carol walked away from Arbonne recently and has contacted me. I'm hoping that we can repair the damage and come to terms with this situation. The 3 of us all went to middle school, high school and college together so there is history and I care about both of them.

I'm an Arbonne consultant - posted as no name above - please don't berate me.

I see what you're saying about this woman's tone. Why don't you speak with her about it? Not speaking with her about it seems like the elephant in the living room.

As for the pup approach, I tried it and it's alright. But I think that honest to goodness presentations need to be the bedrock of a balanced business. This way, I cover my expenses and make a small profit, as well as make a commission. And I also have a network of mostly consumers whom I service and a few biz partners with whom I work closely. Some would say this is "working hard" and not "smart" but I think it's the only way to build a stable, honest business.

[silent]

No Namer, that is the problem - they don't know - but they think they do. They are feeding lines that they believe to be true, so they are confident in what they say. Arbonne knows this and they turn a head because it will keep people signing up, it will keep people ordering more and keep people from cancelling and returning which = $$$$$, and lots of it.
As for the changes that are referred to in the marketing plan in that email - here is what I know and what I suspect (Cat and the others that recently left), I was still getting emails and info up until pretty recently so I may have a little further info on the time line...
I do believe that sometime recently after NTC there was some type of corporate decision made that there needs to be changes (probably due to all of us coming out of the woodwork). My team received several emails from NVPs and RVPs (I have them all for safekeeping and may share them, someday) that stated we had to change the way we talk. That particular email was talking about the medical claims, toxin claims, mineral oil claims, etc. It also said we could no longer push the prolief as a product that would serve a medical need (not that anyone was pushing prolief anyway because it only costs $30, not $266 like a RE9 kit). I do have to say that at first I saw this as a responsible action on the corporate part, to try and stop the misrepresenting that's going on. But then I quickly saw how the lines continue to use the info, but they are just more careful about it and how it is in written form. Does Arbonne know they are still doing this? Maybe, maybe not.

In addition, I noticed shortly after that the NVPs and RVP started choosing their words more carefully. At times, they even said, let me think about how I want to say that. Or - let me say this carefully - almost like they were hinting, read between the lines. They also urged people from other teams (these were open meetings) to remember, they are welcome to learn these techniques but not all teams like these approaches so they should get further guidance from their own upline. They never used to give these types of disclaimers. These comments were generally geared toward the topics such as tap-rooting/team building presentations, income statements, and front-loading (whoops, I meant inital order). When I joined, the team was pushing/encouraging 7 kits (1 to return to sponsor because she gave a new one the you were now using - no this team didn't hand out used kits - at least they were doing SOMETHING right)and 6 for new prospects at 1 on ones. Then within a month of when I joined it was 10. And now it is 12. They also very carefully told everyone after NTC to stop using the Lets Go Shopping pres and only use the new Arbonne = Results. That doc is approved by Arbonne as it is on their website. Its pretty much the same document with some modificaitons. However my line in particular saw it as a big deal and they make it sound like they too are doing things differently. But in essence they aren't. Maybe the biggest change is that the presentation is actually approved. I do notice at the back of the pres. that they encourage people to buy 4 sets of either the RE9, mens or AI - and it says on the previous page - Choose one of the Business Builder Sets that's right for you - I have to think that the fact that lines have doecumentation and are pushing people 12, that's non-compliant. Does Arbonee know, most certainly. Do they do anything? No. Even if you are still thinking Arbonne is ok, I would encourage you to save everything your upline has given you as it will be your only course of action when you decide to get a refund as its all unethical and faudulent.
I have also noticed a very large increase in emails not containing direct information, such as buy 12. They have become very careful not to put in writing. Its like they have code names for it (but I have a couple someone slipped on....). But they do talk about it pretty freely on these calls and in smaller meetings. Anyway - back to the subject - so they know? Maybe not. But when everyone around you starts being SO careful not to let people know, that's a clue something is wrong.

[Lady Swisse, Viscountess DeePore]

Silent, I think you have to change your screen name. :) That aside, I think you are very rational, well-spoken, and very pragmatic in how you state your facts and experience. I think most of us here could learn some things from you. I think you state matters in such a way that even our few ethical Arbonne people can agree are problems and worth mention. I hope. Thanks for speaking out.

[silent]

Thank you. I know, I am not so silent anymore. Perhaps I will change it & tell more when I get my refund. I have burned all documents and emails that are bascially incriminating to a CD so even if my hard drive was to suddenly fail, I still have everything. Still a little while to go for my 6 weeks but if that refund isn't on my account on D day, Mr. Mork shall be getting an email from me as well with a lot of "evidence".
I have had a few emails w/ compliance - they concur that what is occuring is "non-compliant". They want me to send them proof. I told them how easy it would be for them to get it themself as I am no tattle-tale & not looking to have problems in my small close-knit community, just want my money back. I also mentioned something of the sorts of - if they are as ethically and morally sound as they claim to be, they will see this as a responsibility they have to take the high road and use some resources of their own to expose these people instead of using pawn consultants that have already been taken advantage of enough & just let those people get on with their lives.
So far, to my knowledge, they have made no effort to get it (the proof) themselves.

[cuzIcan]

Silent that is exactly what Arbonne compliance told me but I told them that the burden of investigation for proof of the facts was their responsibility especially since it is their co. policies & procedures being violated on a daily basis. Finally, I had to send Stian about 60 emails to prove it to them. The funny part is Stian was the compliance person for my group & some of my emails from 10 months ago came from him.

[silent]

I have been communicating with someone else there so far but we'll see how it goes. I even joked with one guy on the phone a few weeks ago that if they would like to hire me and pay me to be a detective to give me a call. I actually thought that would be kind of fun at this point, but I wouldn't do it seriously, I was just kidding with him in my frustration. And before anyone critiques my poor typing & lots of typos, I admit to being a bad poster. I am generally holding a child when I type or typing really fast to get back to the kids. I don't have time for massive proofreading, sorry, I just do my best with what I have.

[saved by grace]

can anyone tell me how long before a consultant starts to figure out they've been misled?

[Cat]

It took me about a week after I signed up to start really questioning a lot of things that didn't make sense or just seemed out and out strange. I really, really tried to stay "in the moment" and keep my "eye on Arbonne", but there is just so much a girl can take before you start paying attention to that voice that keeps telling you you're being taken!

[ripped off reis]

Yes. Arbonne does know that consultants are still using the " Puppy dog approach" I told Stian myself as well as cuzIcan did. He knows exactly what is going on. He chooses to make excuses and is trying to buy some time. I really think he thinks we will "go away". He actually stated that he wishes "it" would go away. So see, this is why I get so mad and crazy because we really are trying to warn people about this. It can ruin you finances, dreams, time with family and friendships. Remember, I lost 2 friends that I have know since I was 13. This sucks...

[saved by grace]

thanks a bunch for taking the time to answer my questions...i have nothing to offer here. i am just curious. can this be done one of 2 ways: spend lots of $ on pups to pass out OR just get lots of people under you to pay $29 to buy the products. just from what i read, it sounds like some are into the business building with little product selling and some just push the products. if so, what is up with a team that swears they are doing it all different (completely legit and foolproof) but they still ask you to give them $650?

[learningtofly]

Yesterday I told my direct upline that I wanted to get out of Arbonne and she asked me why and I kinda lied to her so I wouldn't hurt her feelings (because she works in the cubicle next to me!! Yikes!!) I told her that it was hard for me to prospect people and that I didn't think it was for me anymore. So she tells me that there are other ways for prospects to come in (I got suckered and got in at $1800) and so I asked her how?? and she says that they can either do half of $775 at the beginning of the month and half at the end. I was thinking, "why wasn't this offered to me?? I'd rather have done that then the $1800) and then I said so what if they still can't afford it?? and so she says well, her upline who is an RVP now, fronts money for some of her prospects, she has her mother and father under someone (stacking anyone???) and other non procedure crap. So I said "But I'm already putting money into buying more product" and she says "just think of it as loaning money to a friend" yeah right. My friend who also got into Arbonne but who is now out were talking about how we got suckered to putting in $1800 (for me) and $1900 (for her) when all we needed to put in was 29 bucks to be consultants!! yes...i was so pissed when I finally read the manual (after the money was taken out of my credit card!!) But the fog has lifted!! I am myself again. Finding out about Urea and Parabens really freaked me out. Although they say that Urea is synthetically made broken down it's a form of formaldehyde...Yikes!! Thanks for listening or I should say reading!! I'm glad I found this blog. It really opened my eyes after I started questioning myself about Arbonne. =)

[pinkcadillac]

this is unbelievable. I will be really shocked if Arbonne is sued for pyramid scamming. This is totally ridiculous. Your upline ADMITTED that her sponsor regularly "buys people into" the program? That's just buying your way up the pyramid.

[pinkcadillac]

I meant I would be shocked if Arbonne ISN'T sued for being a pyramid ..oops :)

[Leah]

Saved by Grace, There are people in all sorts of MLM who do the business as a supplemental income. They do this through home parties, catalog parties, etc. They may mention the opportunity during their presentation, but they aren't exactly pushy about it. They want product sales because their retail profit is much higher than their override commission, by virtue of them not "trying to get to the top," therefore being at a lower management level.

There are also a lot of teams in Arbonne who push their downline not to use the Results Approach because they believe that the home party system is the better way to educate their potential customers about the actual products. I don't really see a problem with MLM in these respects, because the consultant is not scrambling to get to the top of the pyramid, she's just trying to make a living. Any initial investment is usually for the products to show at the home parties, as well as personal use products.

Of course, this model is only possible because of the psycho's pushing inventory, stacking, and using high pressure techniques. That's the problem. I think there are definitely ethical people doing MLM ethically, but the overall model is where the problem lies.

[cuzIcan]

Arbonne's BBB rating has dropped again to "BB" so I wonder how long until it is changed back to a "A"--what a scam.